Whenever and however you give birth, your experience will impact your emotions, your mind, your body, and your spirit the rest of your life.
– Ina May Gaskin
As I sit here reflecting back on just under 3 weeks ago when we finally got to meet our precious son Enoch Brave for the first time, I am completely humbled and in awe of how miraculously God made our bodies, how miraculously God made babies, and how beautiful and intense birthing can be. In a matter of moments my entire world was enlarged and my heart expanded in a way I had never known or experienced before.
Leading up to my pregnancy I wasn’t entirely sure what I wanted my birth story to look like…. it took us over 3 years to get pregnant and doctors told us it wouldn’t be able to happen naturally (endometriosis, cysts, only one ovary, etc….) so I had a lot of time to think about how I would approach my labor and delivery once the day arrived. During my waiting season of faith, I kept believing and trusting in the Lord for my healing knowing that someday I would be pregnant. I also did what I could do to steward my body in the natural by balancing my hormones, eating primarily organic (at least at home), taking in good nutrition, raw juices, greens, various herbs, tinctures, homeopathic remedies, vitamins, etc….. and worked closely with some holistic fertility specialists for the 3+ years trying. Just before looking into IVF options and feeling at the end of our rope, we ended up finding out we were miraculously pregnant on Mother’s Day morning 2016! It was truly one of my favorite moments because I knew this baby was already such a gift from the Lord and that He had healed me. I was overjoyed to say the least!
Pregnancy was not an easy undertaking for me… despite being very into holistic health and seeing a naturopath and various holistic specialists for over 3 years to prep my body for a baby as well as throughout my entire pregnancy, I ended up experiencing one of the worst kinds of morning sickness called hyperemesis gravidarum. I would never wish this morning sickness on anyone as it is one of the most debilitating things I’ve ever had to endure and literally made me bedridden for 10-12 weeks solid forcing me to resign from work temporarily on medical leave as I couldn’t go more than an hour (many days) without throwing up. I couldn’t wash my own hair, I couldn’t brush my teeth without vomiting, and I could barely walk more than a few feet at a time. I literally tried dozens of remedies to help with the symptoms, but nothing worked for me. I thought I was going to punch the next person that told me to try small bites of saltines and ginger as this was far more than a saltine problem haha. I lost over 20 pounds my first trimester and had a very difficult time staying hydrated. I either had to suck on small ice cubes or take the tiniest sips of liquid as that was all my stomach could handle. Thankfully I found 3 foods that helped me get through that season and I started to come out of that terrible slump around 18 weeks pregnant and felt progressively better. This is a story for another day as it was a really tough season of endurance.
Once I was able to keep more food down, the baby weight started to come on quickly. I think my body was catching up with all the weight it had lost during that hyperemesis morning sickness season and I ended up gaining a total of just over 60 pounds. I know, that seems crazy, but I was eating healthy so I figured my baby needed the extra weight? Second and Third trimester I experienced the typical pregnancy joys of huge cankles, acid reflux, lots of water weight, puffy face, occasional throw up, etc… and I was not a “posh” pregnancy carrier. I can honestly say I thought being pregnant was rather difficult… at least more difficult than I envisioned it to be. I still don’t understand why my body reacted in some of the ways it did as I’ve always been a very intentional and conscious eater. I’m now convinced that pregnancy makes well intentioned women do really crazy things. I would throw up the veggies which I wanted to eat, but it was the ‘junk foods’ that would occasionally stay down. :/ I was dumbfounded.
Despite the frustration of being bedridden for nearly 12 weeks, I tried to maximize the moments when I could think/be awake and spent a lot of time reading and researching birthing and pregnancy. I re-watched The Business of Being Born 1 & 2 documentaries, I read everything I could by Ina May Gaskin (legendary and wise woman in the natural birthing world), and I educated myself on what birthing entails, various procedures, drugs, options, epidurals, vaccinations, etc… After a lot of research and ultimately just wanting my baby to have as few interventions and drugs as possible I decided that I was going to do everything in my power to have this baby naturally. After researching a lot on the topic of birth and looking to Ina May resources as well as other midwifery type resources on the subject of birthing, I learned that although countercultural, birth is not something that needed to be feared and the more I educated myself, the more I felt empowered as a woman to be able to birth. All of my life I have had an unhealthy fear of birth and was never sure if I could muster up the courage and strength it would take to do it naturally, but once I was pregnant I faced the fear head on and began to expose some of the common beliefs around birthing that don’t necessarily need to be so indoctrinated into our culture. Ethan was fully supportive of the natural route, and together we took a 6 week Hypnobabies birthing course. By the end of the 6 weeks, I felt completely ready to give birth how God designed our bodies to do it. I felt like all of the fear I had was worked through and more than ever I could hardly wait to give birth. I learned a lot about how our bodies were designed so intrinsically to give birth and made to do this. I learned that birthing could be a beautiful thing when surrounded by peace, comfort, and trust and I learned that we as women have a huge voice in what we do or don’t allow in our birthing process, but often times we don’t know what we can choose unless we do our own research ahead of time. This is why I am processing and writing down this birth story… I want to help empower and enable other women to experience the joy and beauty of birth and all its glory without having to go into it fearfully (if this is their desire). And trust me, if I can get over the fear of birthing (I was originally quite scared to give birth), I think anyone can.
“Giving birth should be your greatest achievement not your greatest fear”
– Jane Weideman
Now let me start off by saying that everyone’s birth story will be completely different than each other’s and ultimately all women are incredible for birthing period. Different stories are completely beautiful, expected, and however your miracles come into this world, it is a glorious, supernatural thing. I also understand there are occasional complications that can arise and each family/woman has to do what is best for everyone in the moment. My biggest purpose in sharing this story is to de-mystify the fear surrounding birth and to hopefully encourage other mommas or soon to be mommas out there that birthing does not need to be fearful and it can actually be peaceful and enjoyable to a degree despite the pain. I wanted to share my personal story as perhaps motivation or hope for those desiring to birth naturally as I know I would have personally benefitted from hearing a story like this and I did appreciate when other woman shared with me their positive stories leading up to birth. While I feel all the books, classes, and research I spent investing in learning about birth was so worth it, I don’t think anything can fully prepare or equip a woman with what birthing for the first time is like. With all that being said, I will begin.
“We are the only species of mammal that doubts our ability to give birth. It’s profitable to scare women about birth. But let’s stop it. I tell women: Your body is not a lemon”
– Ina May Gaskin
I originally started out by going to a birth center where I could labor for the majority of my time at home and then finish up the birthing part in a nice large tub at the birthing center. However, after researching more about birth and delivery and hiring an incredible doula who I trusted a lot, the idea of doing a homebirth kept coming back into my mind. I asked my doula her thoughts and what she would do if she were me…. she responded without hesitation and said that she would definitely do a homebirth (as she had 2 hospital births and her 3rd baby at home). With that being said, I immediately switched over to a homebirth (at 27.5 weeks gestation) as I followed the peace inside of me and desire as I knew I would feel most comfortable at home. I sought to find a midwife that could help the labor and delivery process at home and after many phone calls and research I came across a midwife who practiced very similarly to Ina May Gaskin and who has been birthing babies in homes for over 36 years. I immediately felt peace after talking with her and knew that this was the midwife I would want on my birth team. I knew going into a natural birth that a solid birth team I felt comfortable with was important, but now post birth I feel like that is one of the biggest keys to a positive birthing experience that you will look back upon and feel zero regrets, only joy. A team who you can trust, build relationships with, feel comfortable around and know that they are for you and your vision is paramount to a positive birthing journey in my opinion regardless of how you desire to birth. Reflecting back, I truly believe the peacefulness and success of my drug free, homebirth was largely in part to my incredible birthing team and I truly cannot thank them enough. I would trust them with my life and so value their wisdom and expertise surrounding birth. My birthing team entailed my midwives, my doula, my sister, and my husband Ethan.
“It does a man good to see his lady being brave while she has their baby… it inspires him”
– Ina May Gaskin
I carried my little baby boy for 42 weeks and 4 days before going into labor at 11:30PM on a Monday night. I had spent the previous days/weeks doing many squats, lunges, rebounding, jumping jacks, stair climbing, mall walking, running, spicy food, pineapple, sexy time with my hubs, birthing ball time, chiropractic adjustments, spinning babies techniques, drinking raspberry leaf tea in large quantities, running, incline walking, acupressure foot rubs, hill walking, black and blue cohosh homeopathies, cohosh tinctures and then eventually resorted to 1 Tablespoon of Castor Oil on Monday evening (I did the least amount recommended by Ina May Gaskin to help get labor started). After taking the Castor Oil around 8:30PM, I threw it all up about an hour later. My sweet sister was in town and planning on being with me for the birth, so I was extra determined to have this baby while she was here as she flew in from California! She was my workout buddy during a lot of the last days leading up to birth while my hubs was at work. I figured that although all of this stuff I was doing was helping to bring the baby sooner, ultimately his birthday was already determined by the Lord and he would come when he was ready. I ended up going to bed around 10:30PM this night as I was tired from all the exercise I had been doing this day and I was a bit emotionally tired as I really thought my labor was going to start on Monday morning when I was having consistent cramping. I was so excited Monday morning and hopeful that my labor was about to start that my sister and I made cupcakes and brownies for my husband’s work team to bring to them as a surprise and then whisk Ethan home to help me progress in my labor. We ended up making the cupcakes and brownies and visiting him at work, but I still wasn’t in labor by Monday afternoon so he stayed at work and I did more exercising.
11:30PM until 9AM
After going to bed around 10:30PM Monday night, I awoke at 11:15ish to terrible sharp pain. I thought it was the aftermath of the Castor Oil and maybe I had more to throw up so I did not think this was my labor starting. I went to the bathroom and noticed bloody show and part of my mucous plug in the toilet (I had noticed pieces of it earlier days as well) and felt slightly better so I went back to bed and a few seconds later I had that terrible pain again, not realizing it was a contraction. I waited just a few more minutes before waking up Ethan (my hubs) because I still was in a state of confusion and wondering what this was from. I didn’t want to have any false alarms to him or my sister so I didn’t want to wake up either of them unless this was the “real deal”. After the 3rd contraction, I woke up Ethan and told him that I was in a lot of pain and I think they were contractions and to start timing them. The contractions varied from 2-4 minutes apart and were steady and strong all night long. I woke up my sister and both her and Ethan started filling up my birthing tub and going into “go mode” with our plan. We all thought by the intensity of the contractions and how closely they were together that there was a chance the baby could come quickly. We contacted our doula and midwife to let them know that the contractions had started and get their wisdom, but to not come yet as we were doing okay without them and wanted to be farther along before they came. I also wanted them all to be able to get some sleep if possible before helping to deliver the baby. In between filling up the birthing tub and timing contractions, Ethan and Nikki (my sister) were supporting me with water and tiny bites of food to keep up my endurance. Each time a contraction would come, Ethan would read scripture in my ear and be right by my side comforting me. It was amazing how when he would read scripture and I would focus on it, it completely helped take the edge off of the contraction. I ended up taking a bath in my home tub around 4 or 5AM and sat in there for at least an hour, maybe two. While sitting in the tub, the contractions were much more bearable (even though I still couldn’t talk through them, the warm water took the edge off and spaced them farther apart) and I was able to rest in between contractions.
9:15AM until 2PM
I ended up laboring all throughout the night with Ethan and my sister and we ended up having our doula come the next morning around 9:15AM. She immediately started helping me with laboring in different positions, and applying counter pressure on my hips during contractions. I remember I threw up a yummy smoothie at one point, but at other points of feeling nauseous, my doula would put various essential oils in front of me to help dispel the nausea. Lemon essential oil was one of my favorites to dispel the nausea. My doula helped me with various stretching techniques and then one of our midwives (two work together on a team) came around 10:45AM and she started assisting me with breathing through contractions with my doula and I believe around this time I was having very strong back to back contractions. I don’t remember how long this lasted, but once we were done, they both commented that I made it through transition! I was so relieved to hear that because I thought that once you go through transition you only have a couple more hours until the baby comes! However, after going through transition my contractions slowed down and started to get farther apart. I am not sure if it was my body that was exhausted or what, but we needed the labor to continue to progress so I needed to get into positions to help assist my body further. All throughout this laboring process, there were times when my body would need rest and fall asleep. My birthing team understood that this is often part of the normal rhythms of natural labor, and encouraged me to rest when I could, knowing that my body needed to gear up for the endurance journey ahead. It wasn’t a controlled rest, it was a totally natural experience where in between contractions my body would fall asleep briefly until the next contraction.
2PM until 8PM
My birthing team had me squatting, lunging, and climbing my stairs and skipping a step each time going up. Ethan was right beside me throughout every moment of birth and comforting me, holding me, kissing me (natural oxytocin booster), and encouraging me. After doing the stairs and squatting more, contractions started picking up a bit more again and I was able to go into the birthing tub for a while. I had multiple contractions in the birthing tub and eventually asked Ethan to come into the tub with me. After one of the contractions I felt this bulge and pressure continually increase on my vagina and felt down there to find part of my water bag coming out. After a couple more contractions and standing up in the birthing tub through more contractions, my water bag popped and water came bursting out into the tub with a gush. It was a welcome relief to alleviate that pressure and at that point I wanted to get into my shower and continue to try and labor under hot water coming down on me. Ethan set up worship music in the bathroom and I was able to just let the water beat down on me while worshipping and feeling so much peace. I was in there for a good hour or so and talked to my sister and Doula who encouraged me saying that they know I could do this. I think my face was flush and I looked exhausted as I asked them if they thought I could do this and they both said that they knew that I could. It was such a beautiful moment and I will never forget their faces of confidence and trust and it helped me to continue on.
9PM until 1AM
After getting out of the shower I started the beginning part of the pushing phase… I am guessing this was around 8/9PM. I didn’t fully know what pushing was supposed to feel like or how to push, but my body just kind of forced me to do it. Once my birthing team taught me how to push through each contraction I think my pushes were more effective and after about an hour I was sitting on the toilet pushing through a contraction (not going to the bathroom) and they said that they could see his head at the peak of the contraction. I remember asking if he had hair so I could get a visual and just keep going and they said he did. I kept doing pushing contractions and moved back into the birthing tub in the bedroom and kept pushing. Throughout all of these contractions and laboring process my midwives would be monitoring baby’s heartbeat to ensure he was not in any sort of distress. Every time they checked his heartbeat it was beating completely normal and healthy and there were no signs of him being uncomfortable. Ethan and I continued to labor together with this little baby and there was a beautiful calm and stillness in the room. We had worship music playing, Ethan was reading me scriptures, everyone was there just sitting in the quiet and praying and I just felt this supernatural surreal peace in between contractions. I kept wondering if this was real and if a baby was actually going to come out. I think around midnight my midwife wanted to check to see how far dilated I was and make sure that his head was in good positioning, etc… and ensure all was safe and well because the pushing part was taking a while and they wanted to see if we should keep going or let my body rest. She checked me and gave the encouraging report that I was fully dilated and ready to go and that she could feel Enoch’s head moving back and forth as he was trying to decide which way to come down.
1AM until 3AM
Hearing this good report gave me motivation to continue to keep pushing and at this point I wanted to get out of the tub and kneel on the bed on my hands and knees. I thought I was pushing before, but this was a whole new intensity of pushing. I was leaning on Ethan and this was my laboring position where sweet Enoch made his entrance into the world – supported by Ethan literally. My ligaments and body were able to be nice and open in this position and help ensure the maximum space for him to come into the world. This was the most intense part of labor as I could feel myself getting stretched more and more as each contraction of intensity came. My entire birthing team was in the room and encouraging and directing me while applying counter pressure and explaining what to do to get this baby out. I remember feeling the ring of fire and hoping that it was almost over so I could meet this little baby boy that I had only dreamed of for many years and also so the pain would be over. I kept giving every push everything within me and every muscle and part of my body was working together with this baby to come out all while having Ethan and my team supporting me and encouraging me. On the final push and most intense pressure, I could feel his head coming so close to being out and my midwives checked to ensure no cord was around his neck and continued to apply counter pressure to help me not tear. She confirmed there was no cord around his neck and then directed me to give this last push everything within me to which I did and little Enoch’s head popped out. After his head came out, the next push his entire body came out and I looked to my left on the bed and I saw my little baby boy in real life for the first time. I could hardly believe that it was over and I was so relieved that he was here. I was so exhausted and in shock that my team assisted me as I turned around and laid down in the bed I was on and handed me our sweet beautiful baby boy. Ethan and I just sat together in complete awe as we looked over and were mesmerized by this new little baby boy who was our son. It was a beautiful moment and filled with joy, satisfaction, peace, love, thankfulness, and awe. I will never forget these moments. I remember thinking to myself immediately after he came out as he was lying on the bed and I had just pushed him out that “that was so worth it” and “I would do that all over again if I knew I got to have this baby boy”. I was exhausted and could barely keep my eyes open at that point, but I was so mesmerized and grateful. He was perfect. I was speechless. I was surrounded in love. They continued to let his placenta finish pulsing the final nutrition blood into his body before having Ethan cut his belly button cord and during this time I birthed the placenta after about 20 minutes when my body was ready to do so. Once the placenta was out, it continued pulsating nutrition into little Enoch’s body for another 35-40 minutes on top of the 20 minutes when it was inside so he had an additional hour of the placenta’s blood going into him which made him have great coloring right away. Then Ethan cut his cord and we got to continue snuggling with him. Birthing the placenta took only one push and was far far far easier than just birthing a baby ha. It was actually relieving to birth it after.
Little Enoch’s color was incredible (I think partly from letting the cord be attached until the blood was finished pulsating), he had zero bruising, lesions, rashes, or peeling. His apgar scores were all as high as they could be, his eyes were alert, and he was 10.1 pounds of healthy chunky goodness. He was 22.25 inches long and he had a 15 inch head, so that would explain why it took just over 27 hours of intense labor to get him out!
Reflecting back on that night seems like forever ago already, but I will always thank God for such a positive birthing experience and also thank God for how intrinsically He designed our bodies to give birth. He gave woman such a strong will to fight, endure and overcome through the process of labor and I believe that we carry that same strength over into being moms who tenderly love our children and model for them perseverance and sacrifice on a daily basis. I would not change one thing about my birthing experience and look back on it with such joy and love knowing that God’s presence was thick, I was surrounded in love (the best birthing team) and prayers from my sisterhood community of women, and God’s grace carried me through. It was surreal and a beautiful process.
Q. What were some things that helped you during your labor?
A. Lemon essential oil to help dispel nausea as well as other oils diffusing in room, frozen concord grape juice cubes to suck on and give me instant energy boosts to help my endurance/stamina, small bites of food (chicken, yogurt, oatmeal, berries, soup, etc…), having a doula, midwives and doula applying counter pressure, laboring in a tub, cold washcloths, Hypnobabies classes to help train my brain how to relax and breathe deeply and slowly through each contraction, scriptures to recite during contractions to help focus my mind on something positive, positive affirmations leading up to my birthing day, and a positive and supportive birthing team.
Q. Why did you choose to do a home birth versus a birthing center?
A. I wanted to birth in a place that I personally felt the most comfortable in and for me that was my home. I also wanted to be able to access any food I wanted and have the flexibility to walk around a lot as well as rest and recover in my own home once the baby was here. I desired as few of distractions as possible and had peace and excitement about doing a home birth. It was a personal decision that I ended up making after doing a lot of research.
Q. Were you scared going into a home birth for your first pregnancy and birth?
A. I was actually very excited and joyful about going into my birthing time at home because I felt so equipped and knowledgeable about all of my options and felt like the plan we had set up was the perfect one for me. By educating myself beforehand and preparing mentally with birthing classes at Hypnobabies and other classes, I felt confident, ready, and peaceful to bring this baby into the world in my home. I would also speak and confess positive affirmations daily leading up to birth.
Q. Did you tear?
A. I did tear a hefty 2nd degree tear, although it would have been much worse without my midwives counterpressure, compresses and oil as Enoch was making his way through the birth canal. It was my first baby and he is in the 99th percentile with his head size of 15” so I think most women would have torn with those statistics. I opted to heal naturally without stitches so that the likelihood of me tearing in my next labor by healing naturally together versus stitches is drastically reduced. I probably couldn’t rest how I am resting post birth now when I have a 2nd child, so I figured it would be worth it to allow myself to heal stronger and better naturally even though it takes longer time. I am finding that healing from this is quite the process and I admire all mothers that experience this – wow.
Q. Did you do the Vitamin K shot?
A. I did not do the Vitamin K shot and chose not to after reading a great deal about it. A few articles I particularly appreciated were by Dr. Mercola found here: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/03/27/high-risks-to-your-baby-from-vitamin-k-shot-they-dont-warn-you-about.aspx and also this article here: http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/skip-that-newborn-vitamin-k-shot/ I ate lots of leafy greens instead and didn’t want the synthetic Vitamin K in my newborns body. This was a personal choice and I did what I had peace with.
Q. Is there anything you would have changed about your birthing experience?
A. I can honestly say no. I feel so grateful and fortunate with the entire process and truly feel every moment was intentional and worth it. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. It was difficult, but rewarding. The hardest part for me is the healing part post-birth.
Q. Who was your Doula?
A. Laura Hanstad – http://www.allthingsbirthmn.com I would highly recommend her. She is very knowledgeable, personable, and passionate about what she does. She is also a Hypnobabies instructor, trained placenta preparer, trained birth doula through DONA International, and more. I loved having a doula and highly recommend everyone to have a doula regardless of their birthing plan.
Q. Who was your Midwifery Team?
A. Jeanne Bazille & Joanna Pust at Peacefully Born Traditional Midwifery www.peacefullyborn.com I would highly recommend them. They are incredibly knowledgeable, sincere, and skilled at what they do. Jeanne has been delivering babies for more than half of her life (over 36 years) and it is her calling. I loved that they were traditional midwives as well because I appreciated the model and mindset that Ina May talks about and I wanted a similar birthing experience to her style/approach which is what these midwives offered.
Q. What Naturopath primarily helped you get pregnant?
A. Sano Wellness Center in Bloomington, MN. – http://www.sanowc.com/contact.html Dr. Christine Stueve is absolutely BRILLIANT in every way and incredibly wise and knowledgeable. The infertility journey was a process of peeling back an onion so to speak – layer by layer, but she helped prep my body to be in optimal health to allow my baby to be as healthy as possible. She was amazing to work with and we continue to see her as part of our postpartum care and overall health care.
Q. Did you utilize chiropractic care during your pregnancy?
A. Yes — https://www.myfamilyfirstchiro.com Dr. Angie. I actually started with Dr. Angie around 34 weeks after the recommendation of my midwifery team because Enoch was breech and he was not flipping. After 2 weeks of Chiropractic care and Spinning Babies techniques he finally flipped. 🙂 I went to First Family Chiropractic in White Bear Lake with Dr. Angie who specializes in pregnant women and children. She is so patient, so attentive, so caring and so kind and she took all the time needed to ensure Enoch was in optimal positioning to get through the birth canal and flipped. I was seeing her for about 2 x’s per week up until birth. 100% worth it in every way as he was ready to come out in the best positioning.
Q. Was it less expensive to do a homebirth versus a hospital birth?
A. No, it costs more for us with our insurance to do a home birth, but we did not make any of our decisions based upon price. We factored the costs, but ultimately wanted a peaceful and joyful birthing experience with a healthy baby and felt that the route we chose with our birthing team would give us the highest chance at having that. I am 99.9% sure that if I would have delivered this baby at a hospital and the time it took for him to come that it would have ended up in a C-section which for me was the last thing I was hoping for. For us, a healthy mom and healthy baby was priceless and worth any cost it would have taken. We understood there is always a chance your birthing plan won’t go as planned, but we still wanted to do what we could do on our part to try and allow for the best birth possible.
Q. Did you encapsulate your placenta?
A. YES! And I would highly recommend every woman to do so if they can get past the mental part of it. Common benefits of placenta encapsulation are: fortifies iron levels back to normal, helps ward off postpartum depression and anxiety, gives me extra energy, increases milk supply, balances hormones, reduces postpartum bleeding, speeds up rate of healing, returns uterus to pre-pregnancy size more quickly, and is a nutritional powerhouse. I would research it before saying “no” if you are hesitant. My doula dehydrated and encapsulated it using the RAW method and I am loving taking the pills. I call them my happy pills haha.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to send me a message and I will do my best to respond or else adjust these FAQ’s if needed. My only hope in sharing all of this is to help another woman out there desiring to do a homebirth and/or natural birth and give her the encouragement that she CAN do it in a world that will tell her she CAN’T. I was constantly surprised by how many unsupportive responses I received from people when they found out I was doing a home birth. My desire is that the birthing community of women be encouraging and uplifting as God did design our bodies to do this rather than fearful or discouraging regardless of what each woman chooses. The bottom line is that each woman needs to do what will be most peaceful and good for her.